User:Sampo555/Logs

Logs from discussion #wiki which took place Sunday 19th June 2011

<Dalibor|off>	why did you kill that wiki suggest thing? is now official that there is no communication between erep team and citizens of any kind?
<Belea>	No, it is not official.
<Nickk>	It's not official, but it's a fact? :D
<Belea>	It is just that I was the only one who thought that suggest thing will lift off.
<Belea>	Apparently, it did not.
<Khebit>	well, wiki software is not done for communication
<Dalibor|off>	so you wanna say that no erep team members (except you) wanna be involved in any discussions with players?
<Nickk>	Any plans for communication platform, forum or something else?
<Dalibor|off>	if that is true then it's not wonder why this game is being worse every day... :/
<Nickk>	Dalibor|off he did not say that, he just pointed out that he thought that wiki software could be used for such purpose as community communication, and others didn't think so.
<Dalibor|off>	what's wrong with forums ? forums are made for discussions...
<Nickk>	Too much trolls, reposts, and other stuff that's doesn't belong there, IMO.
<Dalibor|off>	so what?
<Dalibor|off>	forums are made for that purpose
<Dalibor|off>	but erep team made mistake by deleting some posts (aka censorship)
<Nickk>	Well some posts deserved to be deleted.
<Dalibor|off>	they should only delete content that is offensive
<Dalibor|off>	and they deleted some threads because they didn't like them (and that threads wasn't against the rules)
<Dalibor|off>	so off course citizens was angry about that
<Nickk>	I don't really see a point in making threads that are simply said "stupid" like "LIMIT WP, OMG!!!" etc
<Dalibor|off>	some communication is needed, don't you think?
<Nickk>	Some, yes. But reasonable communication.
<Dalibor|off>	that is spam and should be moved to spam section (not deleted)
<Dalibor|off>	and locked
<Dalibor|off>	so problem solved
<Nickk>	Then people would complain how their post is in spam category and locked.
<Dalibor|off>	so because of some spammers, everybody else have lost a channel for communication?
<Nickk>	also there is no point of "spam" category.
<Nickk>	Forums aren't email accounts.
<Dalibor|off>	i'm moderating my country forum which has lot of traffic and lot of spammers
<Nickk>	Dalibor|off I did not say that, I think that forum is a good idea. But more moderated forum. That'll keep trolls out of it.
<Dalibor|off>	so I know what I'm saying
<Dalibor|off>	that +1
<Dalibor|off>	it's easy to just disable forums, but not solution
<Dalibor|off>	just put report button next to each post, so if some post reach 10 reports automatically hide it
<Nickk>	That's not really a sollution with erep. There are a lot of pro and a lot of con people. But more moderators, I think would do the job.
<Dalibor|off>	Belea: nothing to say?
<Belea>	Not at the moment.
<Belea>	I was really serious with what I said in eRepublik:Suggest talk page. For now, I don't have anymore the energy to try another public communication channel.
<Belea>	vSkyzv, Dalibor|off, Nickk, to better understand - I have nothing against trolls, spam fests, haters, insults, etc. Those can be moderated, no matter the platform.
<Dalibor|off>	what's the issue then?
<Nickk>	Sooo, why is then the forum offline?
<Belea>	Because of tech difficulties.
<Nickk>	yeah...
<Nickk>	TBH I don't really belive that :D
<Nickk>	believe*
<Belea>	I have no more energy to organize. There were a lot of useful ideas, in the old days, with the forum, in the recent months, or with that eRepublik:Suggest project, the most recent.
<Belea>	Organize, as in explain what is doable, guide people to think in terms of "what is the issue?", try to find better solutions than the suggestions themselves.
<Dalibor|off>	there were lots of great ideas on forums and wiki but why so few are implemented?
<Belea>	Also, is that "you did not implemented what I asked?" idea - it does not matter if the problem was solved....
<Nickk>	I understand your stance, but it's a shame there isn't a communication platform. I know you put a lot of effort in forums and in erepublik:suggest :(
<Belea>	Look at the latest update - food fights every 6 hours - it solved 6 or 7 of the issues/suggestions raised. The overall perception, we did not implement what citizen asked.
<Belea>	The truth is yes, we did not. We solved issues raised.
<Nickk>	I think that most people were happy with last update :S
<Belea>	And very often, the ones which comes with the suggestions considers that his idea is the best.
<Dalibor|off>	this is great improvement IMO
<Belea>	Point in case - "<Dalibor|off> there were lots of great ideas on forums and wiki but why so few are implemented ?"
<Belea>	Because almost none of them were. Instead, we implemented other things in order to solve the basic issue behind every suggestion.
<Belea>	Citizen asked for limit WP/Gold buying/fights/etc. That would hurt our business, less fights = less revenues = less fun. Instead we did the opposite.
<Dalibor|off>	i understand that some of that suggestions are not possible to implement (teh stuff), and some are not 'profitable' for company to implement, but that should be told to citizens...
<Belea>	But people will always remember that we did not implement the "limit WP" limitation.
<Nickk>	=less money for upkeeping servers = laggy server= more posts about laggy server :D
<Nickk>	People don't think before they hit "submit" button
<Dalibor|off>	why not making a rule that only suggestion that got like 500 positive comments is taken into consideration?
<Nickk>	because stupid suggestions will get
<Belea>	Then you will have a lot of suggestions with 500 signed/voted/I agree.
<Dalibor|off>	lev 25+ only ?
<Nickk>	old players are even worse
<Dalibor|off>	because we have higher expectations
<Nickk>	As I said, have moderators consider what's worthy of reading by belea or someone else from the staff.
<Dalibor|off>	not bad idea
<Nickk>	all automated systems fail :D
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Belea, gief my suggestion about a mass PM function for Party Leaders and Military Unit Leaders
<Belea>	Dalibor|off, Nickk, I like the eRepublik:Suggest thing because (a) very few people had access to write and (b) because it could be "educated" by the community.
<Belea>	Case study: http://wiki.erepublik.com/index.php/eRepublik:Suggest#New_Food_Consumption_System
<Belea>	Could anyone take a guess why it will never be implemented?
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	To complex?
<Belea>	"<Lonestar-The-Brave> Belea, gief my suggestion about a mass PM function for Party Leaders and Military Unit Leaders" - it is already in the dev road map, Lonestar-The-Brave
<Dalibor|off>	to complicated?
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Awesome work Belea, thx! =)
<Nickk>	" (~Belea) Could anyone take a guess why it will never be implemented?" - because it's just unecessary, and stupid?
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Also Belea, my 2nd suggestion (I hope I was one of the few that was writing good suggestions lol)
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	http://wiki.erepublik.com/index.php/eRepublik:Suggest#Introduced_the_Career_Tree_again
<Belea>	Dalibor|off, Lonestar-The-Brave - yes (where have you seen an only game which uses two systems of health/energy/stamina/etc. - nowhere).
<Belea>	Also, a simplest reason - the issue behind it was already solved (the 300 health limit was not enough for core users)
<Belea>	Lonestar-The-Brave, that can be created and maintained by the Wiki community....
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Belea, well both yes and no but we need information about when new citizens can do stuff
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Not like they are registering at the wiki and telling us ./
<Belea>	Lonestar-The-Brave, that can be solved. :)
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Please consider solving it then and I will make a awesome tree =)
<Belea>	"<Nickk> As I said, have moderators consider what's worthy of reading by belea or someone else from the staff" (and this)
<Dalibor|off>	so we can expect some positive changes then?
<Belea>	Dalibor|off, writing....
<Belea>	=================================
<Belea>	Wiki started with "admin" took decision, then QJ and miniBill accepted the responsibility of being SysOps, "admin" was still there, but only intervened when the two had doubts or they needed advice. Nowadays, sampo555 and the other SysOps are doing all without any "admin".
<Belea>	Game Moderators project started the same, "admin" took decisions, citizens accepted the responsibility of being mods, and "admin" only intervenes when there are doubts and so on. We haven't reached that point in which "admin" is no longer needed, but the GM Team Leaders take almost all decisions. On top of that, non team leaders take decisions daily without asking anyone about it. :)
<Belea>	I consider that "public communication" should have the same path. But it is very hard to find citizens to accept the responsibility to "demolish" suggestions (or just simply find out what is the issue behind them) and, at one point in time those citizens to be the ones which say "this will implemented and that will be not because..."
<Belea>	====================================
<Khebit>	the problem might be that I don't think users will think the same about suggestions than admins
<Khebit>	I think many citizens would consider the idea of reducing WP, however you don't
<Belea>	Khebit, if you were in my place, would you support this suggestion?
<Belea>	Dalibor|off, the same question for you.
<Dalibor|off>	but there should be some communication...
<Belea>	Nickk, sampo555, Lonestar-The-Brave, feel free to enter the conversation.
<Nickk>	Everyone who has any understanding of basics of buissness and economy wouldn't approve of the "limit WP" suggestion.
<Khebit>	I sincerely don't know which is your place, because I don't know if you are focused in: 1) earn money in big quantities from few players or 2) earn money in small quantities from lots of players
<Dalibor|off>	as I said before... some ideas are not going t be implemented because there are not 'profitable' for owners, and I understand that
<Khebit>	there have been suggestions like that, like "20$ monthly to play freemium with some advantages"
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	If I may say, I would love to hear more communication from admin, not any wall of texts but only shorter information
<Dalibor|off>	why erep adds are disabled? that was nice gold drain
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Like, now we have introduced this and that is to solve these problems that you have told us are bugging the citizens
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	We are also working on the following projects [Insert coming updates here] to solve the following problems [Insert problems here]
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	The best way would be more shorter information posts
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	about the future and coming updates
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	And that admin are working on problems and trying to solve them
<Dalibor|off>	Belea: more gold drains are needed... like adds or monthly fee for increased storage e.g.
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	If the citizens know that admins are working with, we could create project forums were citizens could give input and help admins make the best changes for eRepublik
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Or well, that would be a dream
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	But I think that it could become great
<Dalibor|off>	I believe in this community and that could work
<Nickk>	" were citizens could give input and help admins make the best changes for eRepublik" I think there's a flaw in there, most people only think whats best in their case.
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Well naturally
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	This is a singel player game with a community
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	We just hve to do something for it
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Just b/c citizens give input don't mean that everything they say should be implented
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	This is some kind of a 2nd world game, admin has to make the decisions to keep it so
<Belea>	("<Dalibor|off> why erep adds are disabled? that was nice gold drain" >>> Let's call it an unsuccessful project, lot of moderation issues and no revenues from it.)
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	As you said before Belea, wiki was started as a project with BOTH admin and the citizens, the game moderators are the result of a projects with admins and citizens.
<Nickk>	Belea what about external ads? Have you considered that?
<Nickk>	I would imagine erep has nice page view stats.
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	If we can find more ways for citizens and admins to communucate and interact in different projects, I think that eRepublik would be able to become a great game
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	BUT one final thing
<Belea>	Unsuccesful also. A/B testing revealed that would bring us less than 100 euro per month. :S
<Nickk>	Is anyone else from team communicating with playeres except Belea ?
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Yep
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	<-- is in the team
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Or well
<Dalibor|off>	:o
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	I like to think that I am
<Belea>	Nickk, yes. But it is my responsibility to be visible. To be the "human face".
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	As I said, more projects that involves both citizens and admins
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Like the Wiki
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	The Game Moderators
<Dalibor|off>	as I said some communication is needed
<Dalibor|off>	and what lonestar said
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	anyway Belea, please consider what I said erlies about more but shorter information posts
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	And in places that people can see it, not in the wiki bar
<Dalibor|off>	so Belea, what do you think of Lonestar suggestions?
<Dalibor|off>	people like to now what is gonna happen in few days...
<Dalibor|off>	*know
<Belea>	Why?
<Belea>	:)
<Belea>	I think that is the only concept I will not agree with.
<Dalibor|off>	why not?
<Nickk>	It's nice to know what's coming :D
<Belea>	Giving information before hand. It only created trouble.
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Belea, i think that you are missing the point
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	I don't want all information and details on what is going to be introduced
<Nickk>	One day notice, or when erep goes offline for implementing stuff, there could be link with changes explained
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Only information that you are wokring on something that is going to solve that problem
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	or well
<Nickk>	and some basic Q&A
<Dalibor|off>	or maybe evading troubles? like not buying storage because tomorrow I can get another one...
<Nickk>	to avoid sh**storm on #erepublik
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Information in that you are trying to solve a common problem
<Dalibor|off>	yeah, short info only
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	mm
<Dalibor|off>	no need for tech details
<Belea>	"<Lonestar-The-Brave> Only information that you are wokring on something that is going to solve that problem" - I can tell you what are the problems we're trying to solve at the moment.
<Belea>	And by doing that:
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	I have noticed that long wall of texts are often not read by citizens (just look at the ToS lol...)
<Belea>	(a) I will be obligated to tell you how we will going to solve - thus, some citizens will think for themselves and "find a better solution"
<Belea>	(b) I will not tell you how we will going to solve it - thus, some citizens will think for themselves and "find the solution" and.....
<Belea>	(b1) will be disappointed of the result (because it has no connection with what they imagined)
<Belea>	(b2) "their solution was better"
<Nickk>	While the erep is down for implementing new stuff, people can read about them on wiki page. And thus avoid asking some basic questions.
<sampo555>	Wiki pages aren't created until we get to see what's new ;)
<Freiheitskaempfer>	rebellion \o/
<Nickk>	Well if erep goes for maintainance for like 30 minutes, then it should be posted.
<Nickk>	I'm not saying post it before.
<Dalibor|off>	seams like you have contra arguments with every solution we offer... :/
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	or Belea (c) You will give citizens information, no more rage on irc, forums and on wiki that admin are just ignoring the problems in eRepublik
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	That Citizens are thinking for themself and trying to find solutions to problems is something that you are not able to remove, but to tell them that you are also working on something to solve it, that might lessen the number of suggestions about how to solve different problems
<Belea>	"that might lessen the number of suggestions about how to solve different problems" - and will increase the no. of complains.
<Belea>	Dalibor|off, apologies. I've had my share of disappointments lately. I tend to see disadvantages nowadays!
<Belea>	Lonestar-The-Brave, you know we had an IRC channel for presidents at one point in time?
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Yes I do =)
<Belea>	And it resulted in...? :D
<Belea>	http://wiki.erepublik.com/index.php/2011_eRepublik_Rebellion
<Belea>	Can anyone guess the chain of events that lead to that? :P
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Well, yes I can :P
<Belea>	Go for it, Lonestar-The-Brave.
<Nickk>	Not accepting user suggestions, and therefore it's considered "bad changes"
<Dalibor|off>	I remember only that you come to meeting with them and said that you want talk to them... :/
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Many new changes that wasn't approved by some Presidents leading to many complains and then no communication about the suggestions that had been given by the Presidents
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	If I remember right it all exploded when you siad something like "Valid points, wrong leaders" and then left the channel
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Mostly b/c of that some changes "had" to be done, and you didn't like that
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	But naturally, I don't know everything
<Khebit>	I think it started because of the permban of the presidents too
<sampo555>	"Valid points, wrong leaders" came after the rebellion had started to fade already :
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Alright alright :F
<Renka>	Lonestar-The-Brave - I think the rebellion starte after Belea left the meeting without going over any points in the demand/suggestion list because there was the clause "non negutiable" in it
<sampo555>	Nope ;) (read wiki \o/)
<sampo555>	http://wiki.erepublik.com/index.php/2011_eRepublik_Rebellion
<sampo555>	Rebellion had already been on for few days before the meeting
<Belea>	The rebellion started while we were discussing with the presidents in that channel.
<Belea>	Who were the first two presidents to propose that law - Laya (made a lot of Gold and real life money from selling eRepublik accounts) and Cerber (made a lot of Gold and real life money from massive usage of multiple accounts).
<Belea>	The Gold limitation hit them hard, real hard in their "businesses".
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Did you know this before or has this information come out after?
<Belea>	After.
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Hmm, well that would make sense
<Belea>	At that point, I did not realize why those two were the most vocal ones.
<Belea>	The other presidents rallied because of a simple human behavior - siding. There were a lot of issues in eRepublik (gameplay, lack of fun, boredom). Some of them still are. And when a citizen says "Hey, admin, I have this problem and you're wrong.", (a) very probably you have it too or (b) you instantly remember of a problem of your own.
<Belea>	And from there it escalates.
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Yee
<Belea>	And that is the reason for which we do not announce changes before hand.
<Belea>	Because, very legitimately, someone will not like it. For various reasons.
<Dalibor|off>	true
<Belea>	Also, it is very hard to explain a concept before hand.
<Dalibor|off>	but about other of us - normal players?
<Belea>	Try explaining that food fights every 6 hours only with texts...
<Dalibor|off>
<Dalibor|off>	here you are
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	+1
<Dalibor|off>	:)
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Simpel
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Short
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	And awesome
<Freiheitskaempfer>	is it? "we are planning to remove the concept of wellnessregeneration at daychange. you will be able to regain your wellness every 6 hours"
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	But I see the problem Belea, don't think that we don't understand the problematic situation
<Belea>	I already did say that: http://wiki.erepublik.com/index.php/eRepublik:Suggest#SOLVED_-_Higher_food_fights
<Dalibor|off>	simple is better
<Belea>	And in the forum in 3 or 4 threads.
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	I would consider myself being an active player, but I haven't read that
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	What do I want to say with that?
<Belea>	"<Freiheitskaempfer> is it? "we are planning to remove the concept of wellnessregeneration at daychange. you will be able to regain your wellness every 6 hours"" - and the whole change is not in favor of small countries. How long do you think it would take you or any other citizen for that matter to "hate" it.
<Belea>	dinner, you first hours after you saw the change, you disliked it.
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	that you maybe should find other "channels" for the information
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	The "my land" message is awesome
<Belea>	Why, Poland is at advantage in the war with Germany.
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Then have more citizens
<Belea>	I could not quite understand why Grzechooo disliked that change when he saw it. :)
<Dalibor|off>	every change is favor of one group of people
<Dalibor|off>	you can't please them all
<Belea>	Exactly, Dalibor|off.
<Dalibor|off>	and you shouldn't try too
<Dalibor|off>	just do what is best for most of them
<Belea>	I (we) are not.
<Belea>	We're trying to prevent "not necessary" "scandals".
<Belea>	That's all.
<Dalibor|off>	I think constant changes are killing this game
<Dalibor|off>	I find it hard to explain new player some things
<Belea>	I also think the same. But on the other hand, I want to continue to play eRepublik, not working on a "let's announce citizens that eRepublik will shut down" strategy.
<maiself>	Belea: that is changed is disliked by some because it once agains turns erep into a game where you have to invest a lot of time (rememberrising?) :P
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Is it really that bad Belea?
<Belea>	That is another valid point.
<Dalibor|off>	yeah, 2 click game was better concept
<sampo555>	Now it's like 60 click game every 6 hours ;)
<maiself>	whether better or not...
<maiself>	it's just a different concept...
<sampo555>	Number of clicks depends on your health limit ofc.
<maiself>	and the question is whether it fits the playerbase
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Naa sampo555, you can still work and train with a few clicks
<Belea>	@ maiself - I remember Rising very well. Too well. Too painful.
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	5 clics tbh
<Belea>	maiself, we'll find out in a week or so if it fits the playerbase or not.
<sampo555>	I started to like the Rising battle module after playing it a while but then it was removed :(
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	i liked them
<Dalibor|off>	suggestion
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	but, I am sickly active
<Belea>	The idea is pretty good - gives more free fights, increases consumption, thus reducing "overproduction" and so on... It will only depend on how citizens will use the concepts.
<maiself>	if you got like ~2 hours+, sure it was good
<Dalibor|off>	bad idea was that work as manager... that ruined the market
<Belea>	It may turn out that the majority of citizens use 2400 health per day; or it may turn out that they use only half of it or only 300.. that is what they were used to.
<maiself>	but also requires everyone who wants to stay 'on top' to either se an alarm clock at 4.00 am or purchase more gold
<Renka>	[21:55] <maiself> but also requires everyone who wants to stay 'on top' to either se an alarm clock at 4.00 am or purchase more gold <- isn't this the point=?
<Renka>	to make more people buy gold
<Renka>	I'm sure it is - different questio is if Belea will say it in public
<Renka>	it would be a suicide :)
<Khebit>	also, a small suggestion Belea: say the quality of the product in donation's alerts
<Khebit>	"Whever donated 50 food" is too confusing imo
<Belea>	Khebit, +1 (I have no clue why that wasn't implemented already. Thanks for the reminder!)
<Khebit>	np :)
<Belea>	Renka, actually no, it is not. It is complex. I detailed it at one point to forum mods ( Lonestar-The-Brave can attest to that). We have 3 major metrics: sales is only one of them.
<Dalibor|off>	and other 2?
<Dalibor|off>	retention?
<Belea>	Lonestar-The-Brave, can you make a summary of the Forum Mods thread in which I detail this subject: how much we think about sales and why?
<Belea>	Dalibor|off, and acquisitions.
<Belea>	And there was silence...
<Belea>	:)
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	(~Belea) Lonestar-The-Brave, can you make a summary of the Forum Mods thread in which I detail this subject: how much we think about sales and why?
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Sure, but I am unable to reach it right now
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Should I do it anyway?
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	(Renka) I'm sure it is - different questio is if Belea will say it in public
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Naa that is not entierly true
<Khebit>	Also, more suggestions: Belea why we aren't able to donate Raw materials?
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Well as Belea said, the sales is an important part, i mean, better to have a erepublik with a little focus on sales than no eRepublik at all
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	But we are also focusing on many different other stuff as well, to make the game fun for everyone, same for everyone and stuff like that =)
<Renka>	well this is obvious
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	Gaah
<Lonestar-The-Brave>	I dun remember moar, I am trying to find the cache verson of the thread
<Renka>	but when it comes to deciding on what to implement then the main factor seems to be gold - to reject all changes that limit the spending in any way or make changes that peoplecan spend it even more :)
<Renka>	WP limit would be a big step in fairplay - but obviously it's not going to happen - ever
<Renka>	and untill it wont happen the game isn't fair in any way because you can buy yourself to the top
<Renka>	or is there a way to get near the top without spending lots of IRL gold? :)
<Renka>	lol
<Renka>	IRL money
<Dalibor|off>	there should be some compromise between those two?
<Khebit>	well
<Khebit>	I always thought about aritmethical price increase of the WP
<Khebit>	like: 50 WP for 0.5 Gold, 50 WP for 1 Gold, 50 WP for 1.5 Gold and after that all the WP for 2 Gold
<Dalibor|off>	like in cyber? that was good idea true
<Khebit>	yeah
<Khebit>	Visaplayers would spend the same money, but they would do less damage to the military module